Indian Army, foreign hand
Take the case of the Arjun Main Battle Tank.
Since the project’s inception, the DRDO and Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment have bent backwards to please and accommodate the army, which is the end user.
On its part, the Army has repeatedly moved goalposts, openly blamed DRDO for failing to make the Arjun Tank, humiliated our scientists in the media via anonymous leaks, delayed trials and delayed induction. Recently the Army has been even accused of trying to sabotage the Arjun Tank trials.
After issuing its specifications, the Army changed it often. And when it comes near deployment; they over-tested it till it develops snags. The recent media and political focus on the Arjun Tank trials showed that it excelled in performance. Both the 43rd Armour which tests the tank and the Armoured Corps officers who have driven the tank have appreciated it. But the Army still seems to prefer imports.
Read the full article in Sify.com
August 8th, 2008 at 12:21 am
Every where buoerocracy has crept-in from acquisition to design and development supported by govt. they spend so much money in development,when the project is complete they change the specification and project is delayed for 10 years, till that time they buy sub-standard weapons from outside telling the DRDO is incompetent.
actually DRDO must goto court….but they cann’t….even they need funding for future projects..they are govt. organisation….ministaries have power to scrap the whole organisation.
August 9th, 2008 at 11:53 am
Brother,
Indian Army, is another institution which flaunts in purchasing 2nd hand degraded goods. By the way, their substitute for Arjun Tank, T-90’s which have been imported are certified as not battle worth.
What else can u expect 4m those fools.
August 10th, 2008 at 5:24 am
There should be a thorough and impartial investigation into this fiasco and the army officers found guilty of accepting bribes from the Russians should be shot for treason.
August 19th, 2008 at 10:26 am
Arjun is an ideal tank for the indian army since arjun has been designed, manufactured and perfected keeping indian conditions and indian army in mind.
After the initial order of 124 the indian army should order more of these robust war machines.
August 21st, 2008 at 11:14 pm
Arjun tank is one of the best tanks in the world but there is a general rule that everything can be made better. I think personally that the scientists at DRDO has done great but I also think that they should have done better.
For example, Indian Army complains that the weight is very heavy and it cannot go over normal roads and temporary bridges. The scientists could have tried a new alloy for the tank body which could have made it lighter.
As for the Indian Army, it is degrading day by day. They want only foreign equipment and think that Indians lack expertise in this field.
I would like to say them that most of the software that are used by the foreign countries for their defense are developed in India.
I would also like to say that if we Indians are a little honest and punctual and work together and truly love our country by heart and not take bribes then we could have done a lot better.
August 24th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
Bhai logon,
“Angrej chalay gay, Indian Army to chood gay”. Indian Army officers are still “gori chamdi kay goolam” and can not accept anything Indian. To some extent they are not to be blamed entirely because of serious quality control slips by the OFB (what can you expect from a govt run organization - no values for the life on an Indian soldier).
The only way to imrove the Arjun a better tank than it is will be order more and then work with DRDO in making the improvements, IA can’t just sit by the sided and keep barking - it is a lot of noise that can not be fullfilled even by their foreign patrons. The IA dream tank does not exist and the Israilies just told them to work with DRDO to achieve this - shame that a foreigner has to tell them this.
September 10th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
Everyone loves to warm their pockets in India. Now even high ranking army officers have started doing that. Nothing new about it.
September 18th, 2008 at 3:21 am
Its just a stupidity of army, as they get lot of commision from foreign import, the ultimates are the the gainers from the foreign companies who can’t see the Indian Mind developing the high tech and definition system in india,
September 26th, 2008 at 7:27 am
I heard a lot about Arjun Tank specifications but why the Indian Army is not in a position to accept them, becz of they are made in India
October 3rd, 2008 at 3:18 pm
I have heard that DRDO is working on Arjun MK2 which is far more superior then the Arjuns
October 5th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Great comments. Great comments from a bunch of guys who know nothing on the subject yet have time on their hands to bullshit. How many of you know that the engine of the Arjun is imported from Germany because DRDO cant produce high performance turbine engines. The same goes for about 70% components of Arjun. So much for an “India tank”. DRDO was created to make India self sufficient in weapon design and manufacture in response to demand from the defence services for reliable source of weaponry. Unfortunately despite many decades of spending hundreds of crores of taxpayer funds, DRDO today has remained largely an organisation conducting reverse engineering. Why do you think there are changes in GSQRs? Arjun was to have been made available to the IA in 1980. Do you think requirements of any Army will remain unchanged for over 25 years? T-90s are not the best tanks for India. They are a stop gap maesure till we find a better tank, but Arjun in its present form is useless. It is simply too big and heavy to operate in most terrain conditions in semi dessert and riverine areas. Desserts are not the only place we can expect to fight and that is the only terrain Arjun can operate with success. Lastly, for those who feel that T-90 is more suited to Russian conditions than Indian, you should be aware that Indian Military Doctrine has a lot of Soviet influence in it just as Pakistan has been influenced by US and NATO concepts of war fighting. In other word, the Russians make weapon systems tailor made for their concept of war fighting to much of which we agree. T-90s were not designed for the cold climate of Russia, just as Abrams was not designed to fight in America (It would not be fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan otherwise). No super power or even major power works that way if it wants its defence forces to influence events around the world and also earn foreign currency from arms sales. You are unnecessarily falling prey to vested interests who may be just trying to save their cushy jobs by fobbing off failed equipment to the Army by exerting political pressure and subverting public opinion. Tell me is it a good idea to depend on weapon systems which have a question mark on their reliability to defend your nation?
October 6th, 2008 at 7:44 am
I’m not from India, but I have a strong interest in military hardware. And I agree on what mukherjee said. The Arjun has been delayed so long and still not 100 % Indian made, and certainly the time gap means Indian army requirement has changed overtime. DRDO cant point fingers at the army for changing requirements when it itself cant produce something within the projected time, and still not be 100% indian made.
however the Arjun tank project is not all lost, it has given Indian scientist invaluable experience and know how in building a tank. Its probably to best to build on this experience and joint develop the next gen tanks with the russians.
And btw, The T90 is a great tank. Its APS and K5 ERA is second to none.
October 7th, 2008 at 2:32 am
Never have I heard or read about an unanimous conclusion on the Arjun tank. There always seems to be conflicting views on the product. How should an average taxpayer arrive anywhere near the truth?
It is time that an independent commission looks into the facts on all the homegrown defense establishments.
October 7th, 2008 at 4:04 am
I am with you Kumar, the entire experience will ultimately benefit us with future tank / ICV / heave vehicle designs. And yes T-90s are a world class MBT based on the t-72 design. T-72 is perhaps the most successful MBT ever. But the Russians themselves consider T-90 to be an interim tank to be eventually replaced by the Nizhny Tagil MBT and quite rightly the IA is also focussing on a futuristic MBT which can serve the nation for the next 20-30 years.
October 7th, 2008 at 5:07 am
There are talks between the Russian gov and Indian gov to jointly develop the next gen tanks based on the Brahmos Model. I think this should be done, as it will give India a technological edge over rival tanks in the world. The tank can potentially be the best out there.
Also I believe the Russians thin of the T 90 as interim because they are looking at something more radical, more of a generational leap in tank philosophy, which is the rumoured T 95. The T 95 would not be like any tank out there east nor west. However the T 90 itself is a world class tank when compared to the rest of the tanks in the world in the world. Its K5 can stop the DU penetration rounds of the US M1A2 Abrams. Its that powerfull, n yet the Russians have built an even better ERA than the K5 called the Relikt. SO the Indian T90 can be upgradable easily.
An improved Arjun composite armour combined with newer gen Russian ERA with automatic loader can make a formidable tank for the Indian Army.
October 7th, 2008 at 6:35 am
kumar if you havent already done so. try http://russianarmor.info/Tanks/MBT/n_tagil.html for info on future Russian plans, also check out the `older page` at the bottom.
October 8th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Ya, I’ve seen that page long b4, coz I’ve been following the Russian tank development. I may not remember the details of the proposed tank coz the project has been on and off for many years.
But latest news is that India has been approached by Russia to jointly develop the next gen tank, so I believe the Arjun technology can be built on with this cooperation.
October 9th, 2008 at 7:07 am
I think that is the right direction, but the Russians have to learn to manage their projects more efficiently. Time and labour management to obviate cost overruns and delays. Also they have to come up with much of the money. There economy is not in a very good shape despite the petro dollars. They have a lot to do if they want to repair the damage done by 28 years of neglect to their military infrustucture since collapse of Soviet Union, and they need a lot of money for that. So I really dont know when this futuristic tank will happen. The Russians are not known to keep their word as far as time schedules and costs are concerned, lately they are also being fussy about TOT. Buying one of the western tanks off the shelf does not really suit our scheme of things( even if they agree to sell). Ultimately we are back to the DRDO and their efforts, I hope they do a good job on the Arjun upgrade.
October 10th, 2008 at 6:53 am
Mukherjee, check out these sites.
Arjun discussion on Defence talk forum:
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6612
T90/95 discussion on Defence talk Forum:
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7980&page=16
More drawing’s and design of T 95 on these sites, but they are in russian :
http://www.btvt.narod.ru/3/t-95.html
http://www.palba.cz/viewtopic.php?t=2010
October 10th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Sorry Mukherjee, I posted some links that might interest you, but its been taken off.
On your point, yes I see your concern, but I believe the tank industry is not plagued by the high cost/complexity problems of the shipbuilding and 5gen PAK FA that RUssia is facing.
October 15th, 2008 at 12:21 am
Fuck Kumar and Fuck Mukherjee for using this comment section as their personal email/bulletin board. You traitorous jackasses can go lick the feet (or any other bodily member) of whatever phoreners (that is how you pronounce it right?) that you like, but do it somewhere else, not here. It is pathetic that certain spoiled brats in the procurement sections of the Indian Armed forces seem to pay lip service to patriotism when it comes to supporting and nurturing their own defense industries. The Indian public needs to humiliate these scumbags and hold them accountable for selling out their own country and behaving like a bunch of spoiled brat nouveau-rich girls who want the latest and most ‘fashionable’ gear instead of the simple yet functional clothes their mother made for them. I guess their love for taxpayer funded boondoggle junkets to russia (where they can get lots of russian pussy, vodka and cash) seems to be more important to some of these guys than their love of their motherland (remember the Tehelka video of 3 Indian army officers having sex with prostitutes while simultaneously accepting cash bribes for a military contract). Now to educate the ignorant mukerjee, you dumb ass, almost all western defense systems contain components imported from other countries (for example the main gun of the M1 Abrams battle tank is manufactured and designed by the British, the engines of the Israeli merkava battle tank are imported from Germany, the chobram reactive armour of the M1 Abrams and the Merkava are imported from Britain etc. etc.) Even if the Arjun tank uses imported components, that’s a hell-of-lot better than buy a complete 100% imported piece of junk from Russia (BTW Syrian & Iraqi T-72 tanks were blown to smithereens by Israeli and American tanks in armoured battles; so you can shove the ‘marketing-shpeel’ about the t-72’s greatness up you a–). You start with a system built of BOTS parts and then ‘indigenize’ sub-system by sub-system over time. The point is, that the Indian army should accept and start using their OWN hardware even if it is substandard, and then force improvements in a phased manner (like every other military force of consequence, i.e. China, Russia, the USA, etc.). Do you have such a low opinion of India’s military forces that you don’t think that could crush the pathetically weak and incompetent Pakistanis without buying the best and most expensive phoren hardware? From what I’ve observed of operational Indian Army jawans and officers, they’re TOP-NOTCH and professional (remember 1971 and Kargil) Thank God for people like Sukhetu, Saurabh, Suneel, Abhishek, Patriot, Avinash, Joy and Avatar (and others) who represent the majority and sensible view. Mukherjee you sound like the typical sell-out MoD bureaucrat (keep it up, you never know if a future defense minister might decide that you’d be more useful on the Siachen Glacier)
October 15th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
corruption in the army has reached unprecedented levels. politics in india is so corrupt , even the army has taken to it. I think all of these fools should be brought to justice and shot by the people of india. all the ministers and the corrupt officials. that should solve some of our population problems as well. i estimate there is atleast a 100 million corrupt officials and ministers and army officers in india. I also estimate that there is another 10 million corrupt law enforcement officers. I beg to the people of india to bring these bastards out to the open and shoot them all
October 22nd, 2008 at 8:55 am
Agreed that the Arjun has taken long years to develop and its foreign content is about 50% and not 70% as stated above. Despite this Arjun MBT has emerged as one of the best contemporary battle tanks in the world. This is not hyperbole or abject jingoism but facts are available on the internet if you care to search and these are from reputed journalists and defence analysts. The army due to its misplaced idiosyncrasies have been back pedalling on user/comparative user trails which, has forced DRDO to initiate an accelerated user trails program of their own. Since June-08 this beauty of a tank has successfully completed 6000 Kms of gruelling runs in Rajasthan. Agreed that the tank had some issues with the transmission but this was sorted out by the vendor and the tank did not fail even once during the accelerated trail in Rajasthan. The Arjun tank has been operated by the 43rd Armoured Regiment since over a decade and they are completely satisfied with the tank. Brigadier Chandra Mukesh remarked in his report after the AURCT, “The accuracy and consistency of the Arjun has been proved beyond doubt.” The Kanchan class armour of Arjun is probably the best of the technologies employed. The armour has been able to take the brunt of high precision and deadly Israeli anti tank munitions
The T-72 Ajeya and the new T-90 MBT has shown alarming vulnerability in Georgia during the recent conflict. I wonder why our Army babus are backing such a sitting duck; probably they are looking at the lucrative foreign jaunts which they enjoy so much. So much of shit is flying around because of the Army’s attitude towards DRDO, however, these nincompoops must learn a lesson or two from our Air Force administrators, they have been patient with the LCA, worked along with ADA to fructify their dreams of piloting a flying machine made in our country, and to mention another important quality of IAF, they have been also patient with DRDO missile development. Look where the IAF stands today, they have adequate missile armoury for every eventuality, and the Agni III is a feather in the cap of DRDO, this is without doubt one of the worlds deadliest missiles not because of its firepower but because of its accuracy, the telemetry hardware and most importantly the software was developed by Indian engineers. It no secret that we are the best software geeks in the world and this has been ably proved. Another point to note is that our PARAM super computer is also a beneficiary of this fantastic gift, several countries can assemble a parallel processing unit but would have to turn head over heels to make it work with a suitable Operating system; our boys in C-DAC accomplish this without a flutter.
There is only one truth, the Arjun is a wonderful fighting machine and people who cannot accept this (includes the army) would looks like complete idiots.
October 27th, 2008 at 10:41 am
Arjun is for name sake indigionous.70% of its components are imported.Supply of these components can never be reliable.All these have escalated the cost of Arjun much more than Russian tanks manufactured in India under Licience. When u take years to develop prototype,naturally specifications have to be changed. U can,t fight with obsolete technology.War is to win ,there can,t be any compromise with the security of country.It is sad that project has died its natural death.Now missile technology has changed the war scenerioand our scientiests are doing good job there. Good luck and cheers
October 27th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Thing Only thing which exists is : ” Arjun Tank can match any tank in the world but Indian Army’s top brass want’s to sabotage Arjun because of bribe and commission in buying inferior T-90. This is an act of High Treason”
November 8th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
they are just making us fools the arjun is a world class tank which the t90 tank is no were compared to the arjun tank ,Its only the top brass which dont want this tank to move ahead cause who will earn money
November 9th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
It’s a disgrace for india which is in direct competition with china cannot built a tank with no controversy,chinese built the type99.
the arjun has some serious it weights 58.5 tonnes requiring the IA to modify its logistics,foreign components needed such as its engine and more strange it uses a 120mm gun y not 125mm as the T-72.
BUT IT HAS A CONVINCING PUNCH THE KANCHAN ARMOUR a variant of chobham armour.
its rifle gun accuracy is proven.
T-90 is a good tank kontact-5 era,great mobility,cheaper than the arjun which cost $3.4 unbelievable. However IA had lot of teething prob with it the thermal imager had to be imported can,t work due to intanse heat in desert,air conditioning had not met the requirements.
I MAY NOT BE A POLITICian BUT THERE SHOULD BE no delay if the army wants the T-90 fine provided they do not fail in their duty
November 9th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Indains with russian made weapons are deadly mig-21 in 71 war
the su-30 mki now don’t compare em to syrians or iraqis let’s give IA leadership the benefit of doubt
November 12th, 2008 at 11:19 pm
We have a lot of Mukharjees in India. It is very easy to bash an organization from the outside without knowing the deapths of the problem. I personally know 2 people who were involved with the development of the Arjun tank. According to them, the Army wanted a heavy tank along the lines of the American M1 Abrams & German Leopard tank, however, they kept changing it’s requirments, the Congerss govt was not too keen in giving the clearances to import the non-existant technology from other countries even though an agreement was signed with a German company, when the tank was almost ready the Army again changed it’s requirment and they had to go back to the drawing board for making those changes. Instead of appreciating what the DRDO did to accomadate the knee jerk army requirments, the same army is now criticizing the Arjun. However, they are very happy importing the T-90 that can not shoot straight, whose fire control system did not work and a French had to be integrated with it, the airconditioning does not work - to the extent that the drivers have fainted in the tank (this will do a lot of good during a battle - another Mig21 in the making - the sitting coffin!!), the tank’s laser designator does not work properly. BUT, this is IMPORTED stuff, it has to be good. How can the IA stoop so low as to accept an INDIAN (sub-standard people) product. I don’t know of any country except that has a 100% domestic tank that meets 100% requirments of their army. One has to accept the initial one and keep modifying it, updating it as is done with everything. God does not work on earth, everything can not be perfect the first time, there is a learning curve and we have to accept it.
November 24th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
Arjun is beast and can act like that in war too but first it has to hit our babus including blacksheep hands.
November 25th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
ARJUN IS A TOP MBT. VERRY SIMPLE BECAUSE IMPORTED PARTS ARE COMMING FROM TOP COMPANNIES. THEY ALSO COULD TAKE PARTS FORM SOVJETBLOK COUNTRIES. THE ARJUN IS MADE FORM CHOSEN PARTS WHAT WAS BEST FOR ARJUN TANK. IF THERE IS ANNY DOUBT DAN PLEAS LET THE ARJUN FIGHT AGAINST T 90 AND A MERKAVA 4. AND PLEASE PUT THOSE INDIAN GENERALS IN THE T90. I KNOW WHAT THEY WIL SAY . ASK THE ISRAELIS WICH ONE THE WOULD TAKE TO FIGHT THE ARJUN OR T90. THINGS ARE VERRY SIMPLE. IT IS IS THE CONGRES WHO DON’T WANT TO SEE A OFFENSIFE INDIAN ARMY. ARJUN IS PURE A OFFENSIFE WAEPON BECAUSE IT’S PREPARED TO HUNT(first hit 98%) EN IS ABLE TO TAKE A HIT. T90 IS A DEFFENSIFE WAEPON BECAUSE ITS TASK IS TO HIDE AND SURPRISE INCOMMING MBT’S. ARJUN IS A HUNTER KILLER ON THE MOVE A TRUE PREDATOR. I THINK THE ARJUN IS TO GOOD TO PUT IT ONELY AGAINST PORKY OR CHINKU ARMY. IT IS THE INDIAN LEOPARD 2+ .
November 26th, 2008 at 5:19 am
This is totally unacceptable. How long we will keep exporting weapons and neglecting our own designed ones. Indian Forces can easily act as aggressive ones but our corrupted leaders and top officials of forces, always act as coward. SHOOT THESE FOOLS…….
November 30th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
The solution is the privatization of the defense industry and also the DRDO itself and a strong government incentives for home grown companies who decide to develop and produce weapon systems for the Indian Armed Forces. Hell if the IA wont buy the product at least they will have the freedom to seek foreign customers more easily.
However is unlikely that the government will offer any incentives and there is no one willing to shoulder the risk on their own.
As for the Arjun. I really don’t know what to say, but the fact that it has been over 25 years in the making does not give me a lot of confidence in either the army’s will to purchase it, or the DRDO’s will to build it to spec.
The fact is Indian engineers and scientists are not being appreciated enough to care and hence they do not have the will to excel. This is a vicious cycle which has been going on for decades and is the principal cause of the so called ‘Brain Drain’ from India.
On a more personal note…
Personally it is my dream to one day start up an INDIAN aerospace company with a focus on unmanned aerial vehicles. Heck its the reason why I studying to become an aeronautical engineer (6 months to graduation!!).
December 1st, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Its our first indefinous tank, and it ranks better than tanks we already have and it would cost more if we import so pl. don’t import. If Arjun excels then use it.
December 2nd, 2008 at 3:25 pm
save arjun!!!!